Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

Damaging freeze hits the Midwest U.S.
Posted by: Dr. Jeff Masters, 01:46 PM GMT am 12. April 2012 +35
Large portions of the Midwest U.S. shivered through a hard freeze (temperatures below 28°F ) this morning, and freezing temperatures extended as far south as Tennessee and North Carolina. Though the cold temperatures were not unusual for this time of year, they likely caused widespread damage to flowering plants fooled into blooming by last month's unprecedented "Summer in March" heat wave. Growers of apples, pears, peaches, nectarines, plums, and cherries worked during the night and early morning to minimize the damage by running large fans and propane heaters in their orchards, and some even rented helicopters in an attempts to keep temperatures a few degrees warmer. While freezing temperatures for an extended period will not kill the trees, they will destroy the flowers and fragile buds that are needed to produce fruit later in the year. Temperatures of approximately 28°F will kill about 10% of fruit tree buds and flowers, while temperatures of 25°F will produce a 90% kill rate. Temperatures of 25° were common over Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota this morning, and I expect that this morning's freeze was severe and widespread enough to cause tens of millions of dollars in damage to the fruit industry. There have been numerous freezes and frosts over the Midwest's fruit growing regions since late March, and orchards are definitely taking a major beating from the weather. It will be several weeks before the extent of the damage is known, but I think that so far it is unlikely that the industry has suffered a billion-dollar disaster, such as occurred in 2007. A warm spell in March that year was followed by cold temperatures in early April that were 10 - 20 degrees below average, bringing killing frosts and freezes to the Midwest and South that caused $2.2 billion in agricultural damage, wiping out apple, peach, winter wheat and alfalfa crops.


Figure 1. Temperatures this morning dipped below freezing across most the northeast quarter of the country, extending into Tennessee and North Carolina. Image taken from our wundermap with the new "go back in time" feature turned on.

History of billion-dollar U.S. freezes
Freezes can cause big damage to agriculture. According to NOAA's National Climatic Data Center, there have been six billion-dollar U.S. freezes since 1980, accounting for 5% of all billion-dollar weather-related disasters. Five of these freezes affected California or Florida; one hit the Midwest. Ranked by damages (in 2011 dollars), here are the six billion-dollar U.S. freeze events since 1980:

1) California Freeze of December 1990. Severe freeze in the Central and Southern San Joaquin Valley caused the loss of citrus, avocado trees, and other crops in many areas. Several days of subfreezing temperatures occurred, with some valley locations in the teens. $5.9 billion in direct and indirect economic losses, including damage to public buildings, utilities, crops, and residences.

2) Florida Freeze of December 1983. Severe freeze central/northern Florida; about $4.5 billion damage to citrus industry.

3) California Freeze of December 1998. A severe freeze damaged fruit and vegetable crops in the Central and Southern San Joaquin Valley. Extended intervals of sub 27° F temperatures occurred over an 8-day period; $3.5 billion estimated damages/costs.

4) Florida Freeze of January 1985. Severe freeze in central/northern Florida; about $2.5 billion damage to citrus industry.

5) East/Midwest freeze of April 2007. Widespread severe freeze over much of the East and Midwest (AL, AR, GA, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, MS, MO, NE, NC, OH, OK, SC, TN, VA, WV), causing significant losses in fruit crops, field crops (especially wheat), and the ornamental industry. Temperatures in the teens/20's accompanied by rather high winds nullified typical crop-protection systems. Over $2.2 billion in damage/costs.

6) California Freeze of January 2007. For nearly two weeks in January, overnight temperatures over a good portion of California dipped into the 20's, destroying numerous agricultural crops, with citrus, berry, and vegetable crops most affected. $1.5 billion estimated in damage/costs; 1 fatality reported.

Record warmth in the Western U.S.
As is often the case when one part of the country is experiencing much cooler than average temperatures, the other half is seeing record warmth, due to a large bend in the jet stream that allows warm air to flow northwards. Much of Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, and Colorado experienced record warm temperatures yesterday. Most notably, Jackson, Wyoming hit 72°F, the earliest 70° reading in their history, and 27° above their normal high of 45°.


Figure 2. Severe weather risk for Saturday, April 14, 2012, from NOAA's Storm Prediction Center.

Tornado outbreak possible Saturday in Kansas and Oklahoma
A significant tornado outbreak is possible on Saturday, says NOAA's Storm Prediction Center. A warm, unstable airmass will collide with cold air funneling down from Canada, and strong jet stream winds will create plenty of wind shear. There is the potential for long-track strong tornadoes over Oklahoma and Kansas on Saturday, and SPC has has issued their second highest level of alert, a "Moderate Risk," for the region.

First named storm in the Atlantic possible next week
Both the GFS and ECMWF models are predicting that an extratropical "cut-off" low will separate from the jet stream early next week several hundred miles east of Bermuda, and linger for several days over subtropical waters with temperatures in the 22 - 24°C range. These ocean temperatures may be warm enough to allow the storm to organize into a named subtropical storm. However, climatology argues against such an occurrence; there has been only one named April storm in the Atlantic since 1851. If a subtropical storm does form next week, it would probably not affect any land areas.

Jeff Masters
Categories: Winter Weather
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502. StormTracker2K 11:30 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:
This is going to be one of the worst tornado outbreaks in history. This could rival the outbreaks of April 14-16, 2011 and potentially even April 25-26-28, 2011.


I do think we will see a serious event but probably not on the scale of what we saw with last years outbreaks.

Member Since: Oktober 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
503. TropicalAnalystwx13 11:35 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting StormTracker2K:


I do think we will see a serious event but probably not on the scale of what we saw with last years outbreaks.


They never got a Day 2 High Risk like we have witnessed this morning. This is only the second time in history. The last time it happened, we had a 60% tornado probability issued. It's not just the coverage of storms/tornadoes for tomorrow, it's their strength. Hodos and wind profiles for tomorrow evening/night are insane across northern Oklahoma and central Kansas. We are likely going to see multiple long-tracked/damaging tornadoes. The thing that sickens me is that we know people live there and we know that somebody is probably going to die. :\

TORNADO OUTBREAK LIKELY ACROSS THE SRN AND CNTRL PLAINS NWD INTO THE
MID-MO VALLEY FROM SATURDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SATURDAY NIGHT

0-3 KM STORM RELATIVE HELICITIES ARE
FORECAST TO BE AROUND 400 M2/S2 WHICH IS IDEAL FOR STRONG TORNADOES
AND A TORNADO OUTBREAK APPEARS LIKELY. THE GREATEST THREAT FOR
SIGNIFICANT TORNADOES SHOULD EXIST SATURDAY EVENING FROM SALINA SWD
TO OKLAHOMA CITY.
Member Since: Juli 6, 2010 Posts: 92 Comments: 25986
504. JNCali 11:38 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
I hope the affected local news stations are warning the population in harms way.
Member Since: September 9, 2010 Posts: 5 Comments: 1032
505. ncstorm 11:39 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

They never got a Day 2 High Risk like we have witnessed this morning. This is only the second time in history. The last time it happened, we had a 60% tornado probability issued. It's not just the coverage of storms/tornadoes for tomorrow, it's their strength. Hodos and wind profiles for tomorrow evening/night are insane across northern Oklahoma and central Kansas. We are likely going to see multiple long-tracked/damaging tornadoes. The thing that sickens me is that we know people live there and we know that somebody is probably going to die. :\

TORNADO OUTBREAK LIKELY ACROSS THE SRN AND CNTRL PLAINS NWD INTO THE
MID-MO VALLEY FROM SATURDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SATURDAY NIGHT

0-3 KM STORM RELATIVE HELICITIES ARE
FORECAST TO BE AROUND 400 M2/S2 WHICH IS IDEAL FOR STRONG TORNADOES
AND A TORNADO OUTBREAK APPEARS LIKELY. THE GREATEST THREAT FOR
SIGNIFICANT TORNADOES SHOULD EXIST SATURDAY EVENING FROM SALINA SWD
TO OKLAHOMA CITY.


with what you just said about this being HISTORIC, you still think people should ride out this storm above ground and not in their basements?
Member Since: August 19, 2006 Posts: 7 Comments: 8845
506. StormTracker2K 11:41 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

They never got a Day 2 High Risk like we have witnessed this morning. This is only the second time in history. The last time it happened, we had a 60% tornado probability issued. It's not just the coverage of storms/tornadoes for tomorrow, it's their strength. Hodos and wind profiles for tomorrow evening/night are insane across northern Oklahoma and central Kansas. We are likely going to see multiple long-tracked/damaging tornadoes. The thing that sickens me is that we know people live there and we know that somebody is probably going to die. :\

TORNADO OUTBREAK LIKELY ACROSS THE SRN AND CNTRL PLAINS NWD INTO THE
MID-MO VALLEY FROM SATURDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH SATURDAY NIGHT

0-3 KM STORM RELATIVE HELICITIES ARE
FORECAST TO BE AROUND 400 M2/S2 WHICH IS IDEAL FOR STRONG TORNADOES
AND A TORNADO OUTBREAK APPEARS LIKELY. THE GREATEST THREAT FOR
SIGNIFICANT TORNADOES SHOULD EXIST SATURDAY EVENING FROM SALINA SWD
TO OKLAHOMA CITY.


I know and I agree with you but I just can't imagine that we could do this again this year when what 700 to 800 people died last yuear from tornadoes. Sorry if those numbers are wrong. I wonder if theres a link between these tornado outbreaks which are seemingly becoming more frequent and deadly to Global Warming. There must be a link maybe GW is putting more moisture into jet stream causing these extreme events.
Member Since: Oktober 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
507. TropicalAnalystwx13 11:42 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting ncstorm:


with what you just said about this being HISTORIC, you still think people should ride out this storm above ground and not in their basements?

The idea of people staying in their basements all day is crazy. What I would do however is get everything I essentially need and put it in the basement, and stay above ground until there is a tornado warning issued.
Member Since: Juli 6, 2010 Posts: 92 Comments: 25986
508. ncstorm 11:46 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

The idea of people staying in their basements all day is crazy. What I would do however is get everything I essentially need and put it in the basement, and stay above ground until there is a tornado warning issued.


I will ask you again after this weekend
Member Since: August 19, 2006 Posts: 7 Comments: 8845
509. TropicalAnalystwx13 11:47 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Wichita and Oklahoma City...two of the biggest targets for tomorrow's outbreak.



Member Since: Juli 6, 2010 Posts: 92 Comments: 25986
511. Tazmanian 11:56 AM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Dr. Greg Forbes may still be in bed right now some one else may be doing it so when he come in to work he will likey bump them up
Member Since: Mai 21, 2006 Posts: 5089 Comments: 111632
512. StormTracker2K 12:02 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:
Wichita...Oklahoma City...two of the biggest targets for tomorrow's outbreak.



Remember this! 5/3/1999



Member Since: Oktober 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
513. TropicalAnalystwx13 12:06 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting StormTracker2K:


Remember this! 5/3/1999




No, I was two. :P

I've heard a lot about it though. Oklahoma City is a common target after all.
Member Since: Juli 6, 2010 Posts: 92 Comments: 25986
514. LargoFl 12:07 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
SPECIAL WEATHER STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SPRINGFIELD MO
639 AM CDT FRI APR 13 2012

MOZ066-067-131215-
ST. CLAIR MO-VERNON MO-
639 AM CDT FRI APR 13 2012

...SIGNIFICANT WEATHER ADVISORY FOR NORTHEASTERN VERNON AND
NORTHWESTERN ST. CLAIR COUNTIES UNTIL 715 AM CDT...

AT 635 AM CDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR WAS TRACKING A
STRONG THUNDERSTORM 5 MILES NORTHWEST OF WALKER...OR 8 MILES NORTH OF
NEVADA...MOVING NORTHEAST AT 35 MPH. PENNY SIZE HAIL IS EXPECTED WITH
THIS STORM.

LOCATIONS IMPACTED INCLUDE APPLETON CITY...HARWOOD...JOHNSON CITY...
MONEGAW SPRINGS...SCHELL CITY...TABERVILLE AND WALKER.

THIS STORM IS PRODUCING NEARLY CONTINUOUS CLOUD TO GROUND LIGHTNING.
SEEK SHELTER INDOORS IMMEDIATELY AND STAY AWAY FROM WINDOWS.

LAT...LON 3822 9394 3805 9378 3781 9421 3804 9442
3806 9438 3806 9427 3804 9423 3806 9421
3805 9419 3806 9413 3804 9407 3821 9406
3822 9405
TIME...MOT...LOC 1139Z 235DEG 29KT 3797 9427

$$

LINDENBERG
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 22514
516. weatherh98 12:13 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
We may see a couple of 8s or maybe a 9Saturday April 14
IA northwest - 4
IA southwest - 4 to 5
IA rest - 3 to 4
IL northwest - 3
KS south-central - 7
KS rest of central, east - 5 to 6
MN southwest - 4
MN southeast - 3
MO north - 4
NE southeast - 5
NE northeast - 4 to 5
OK northwest, north-central - 7
OK southwest - 5
SD southeast - 4
TX east panhandle - 5
WI southwest -3
Other areas - less than 2
Member Since: Juni 17, 2011 Posts: 11 Comments: 6301
517. DDR 12:14 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Good morning all
1.7 inches of rain fell @my location in Trinidad yesterday evening which is the monthly average in just about 8 hours.crazy stuff...
Member Since: April 27, 2007 Posts: 13 Comments: 1503
518. washingtonian115 12:15 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Tomorrow will be the Titanic's 100th anniversary.Today will be the last day that it sailed above the water....
Member Since: August 14, 2010 Posts: 6 Comments: 11205
519. MAweatherboy1 12:19 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
With all the hype for tomorrow no one has mentioned the potential for today... SPC is bumping up tornado chances...

Member Since: Februar 11, 2012 Posts: 71 Comments: 6536
520. StormTracker2K 12:22 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Member Since: Oktober 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
521. LargoFl 12:23 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE TOPEKA KS
609 AM CDT FRI APR 13 2012

KSZ008>012-020>024-026-034>040-054>056-058-059-14 1115-
REPUBLIC-WASHINGTON-MARSHALL-NEMAHA-BROWN-CLOUD-C LAY-RILEY-
POTTAWATOMIE-JACKSON-JEFFERSON-OTTAWA-DICKINSON-G EARY-MORRIS-
WABAUNSEE-SHAWNEE-DOUGLAS-LYON-OSAGE-FRANKLIN-COF FEY-ANDERSON-
609 AM CDT FRI APR 13 2012

THIS HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK IS FOR EAST CENTRAL...NORTH
CENTRAL AND NORTHEAST KANSAS.

.DAY ONE...TODAY AND TONIGHT.

THUNDERSTORMS ARE POSSIBLE OVER MUCH OF THE OUTLOOK AREA THIS
EVENING INTO THE OVERNIGHT HOURS. THUNDERSTORMS ARE EXPECTED TO
INITIALLY DEVELOP ALONG A DRYLINE FROM SOUTH CENTRAL KANSAS INTO
WESTERN OKLAHOMA BY LATE AFTERNOON. THIS ACTIVITY WILL MOVE
NORTHEASTWARD ACROSS MUCH OF THE AREA DURING THE EVENING AND
OVERNIGHT HOURS. STORMS THAT REMAIN ORGANIZED WILL HAVE THE
POTENTIAL TO PRODUCE LARGE HAIL IN EXCESS OF GOLFBALL
SIZE...DAMAGING WIND GUSTS...AND AN ISOLATED TORNADO. THE GREATEST
POTENTIAL FOR SEVERE WEATHER WILL OCCUR AFTER 6 PM CDT...GENERALLY
ALONG AND SOUTH OF INTERSTATE 70.

.DAYS TWO THROUGH SEVEN...SATURDAY THROUGH THURSDAY.

A SEVERE WEATHER OUTBREAK...INCLUDING THE POSSIBILITY OF STRONG
TORNADOES...IS EXPECTED ACROSS MUCH OF THE AREA LATE SATURDAY
AFTERNOON INTO SATURDAY NIGHT. THUNDERSTORMS THAT DEVELOP HAVE A
HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF BECOMING SUPERCELLS. WITH SUPPORTIVE
INSTABILITY AND WIND SHEAR IN THE ATMOSPHERE...THESE STORMS HAVE
THE POTENTIAL TO PRODUCE VERY LARGE HAIL IN EXCESS OF BASEBALL
SIZE...DAMAGING WIND GUSTS...AND STRONG TORNADOES. THUNDERSTORMS
WILL CONTINUE AFTER DARK...WITH A SIGNIFICANT SEVERE WEATHER
THREAT PERSISTING INTO THE NIGHT TIME HOURS.

.SPOTTER INFORMATION STATEMENT...

SPOTTERS MAY BE NEEDED THIS EVENING INTO TONIGHT.

$$

BLAIR
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 22514
522. LargoFl 12:24 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting LargoFl:
HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE TOPEKA KS
609 AM CDT FRI APR 13 2012

KSZ008>012-020>024-026-034>040-054>05 6-058-059-14 1115-
REPUBLIC-WASHINGTON-MARSHALL-NEMAHA-BROWN-CLOUD-C LAY-RILEY-
POTTAWATOMIE-JACKSON-JEFFERSON-OTTAWA-DICKINSON-G EARY-MORRIS-
WABAUNSEE-SHAWNEE-DOUGLAS-LYON-OSAGE-FRANKLIN-COF FEY-ANDERSON-
609 AM CDT FRI APR 13 2012

THIS HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK IS FOR EAST CENTRAL...NORTH
CENTRAL AND NORTHEAST KANSAS.

.DAY ONE...TODAY AND TONIGHT.

THUNDERSTORMS ARE POSSIBLE OVER MUCH OF THE OUTLOOK AREA THIS
EVENING INTO THE OVERNIGHT HOURS. THUNDERSTORMS ARE EXPECTED TO
INITIALLY DEVELOP ALONG A DRYLINE FROM SOUTH CENTRAL KANSAS INTO
WESTERN OKLAHOMA BY LATE AFTERNOON. THIS ACTIVITY WILL MOVE
NORTHEASTWARD ACROSS MUCH OF THE AREA DURING THE EVENING AND
OVERNIGHT HOURS. STORMS THAT REMAIN ORGANIZED WILL HAVE THE
POTENTIAL TO PRODUCE LARGE HAIL IN EXCESS OF GOLFBALL
SIZE...DAMAGING WIND GUSTS...AND AN ISOLATED TORNADO. THE GREATEST
POTENTIAL FOR SEVERE WEATHER WILL OCCUR AFTER 6 PM CDT...GENERALLY
ALONG AND SOUTH OF INTERSTATE 70.

.DAYS TWO THROUGH SEVEN...SATURDAY THROUGH THURSDAY.

A SEVERE WEATHER OUTBREAK...INCLUDING THE POSSIBILITY OF STRONG
TORNADOES...IS EXPECTED ACROSS MUCH OF THE AREA LATE SATURDAY
AFTERNOON INTO SATURDAY NIGHT. THUNDERSTORMS THAT DEVELOP HAVE A
HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF BECOMING SUPERCELLS. WITH SUPPORTIVE
INSTABILITY AND WIND SHEAR IN THE ATMOSPHERE...THESE STORMS HAVE
THE POTENTIAL TO PRODUCE VERY LARGE HAIL IN EXCESS OF BASEBALL
SIZE...DAMAGING WIND GUSTS...AND STRONG TORNADOES. THUNDERSTORMS
WILL CONTINUE AFTER DARK...WITH A SIGNIFICANT SEVERE WEATHER
THREAT PERSISTING INTO THE NIGHT TIME HOURS.

.SPOTTER INFORMATION STATEMENT...

SPOTTERS MAY BE NEEDED THIS EVENING INTO TONIGHT.

$$

BLAIR
those poor people..going to have to deal with possible Supercells?
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 22514
523. StormTracker2K 12:31 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
We may actually get some rain here on the eastside of FL today. Clouds are already beginning to build looking west which is odd as I thought our rain would be coming from the east today. I guess maybe the NWS offices in FL aren't seeing this disturbance moving SE across FL.

Member Since: Oktober 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
524. KEEPEROFTHEGATE (Mod) 12:43 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Member Since: Juli 15, 2006 Posts: 147 Comments: 41332
525. GeorgiaStormz 12:50 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Only other day 2 high risk:
April 6-8, 2006 tornado outbreak
And on that day, the high risk didnt come till the 1730 outlook.
So this is the earliest issued High risk day...Ever
Member Since: Februar 11, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 7538
526. BaltOCane 12:58 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting washingtonian115:
Tomorrow will be the Titanic's 100th anniversary.Today will be the last day that it sailed above the water....


Tomorrow is it's last day above water. It hit the berg at night and sank on the 15th.
Member Since: Mai 19, 2009 Posts: 0 Comments: 411
527. jeffs713 12:58 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

The idea of people staying in their basements all day is crazy. What I would do however is get everything I essentially need and put it in the basement, and stay above ground until there is a tornado warning issued.

I agree. A high risk is dangerous, but asking people to hunker down all day is absurd. People in the high risk area are *very* used to severe storms, so many know what to look out for, and when to hunker down.

To give an analogy... asking people to stay in their basements all day tomorrow is similar to asking everyone to get off the road between 11pm and 3am every friday and saturday night because of the higher risk for drunk drivers.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5729
528. ILwthrfan 01:03 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    

Very rapid warm up in the Northwestern Caribbean over the last 4 days.  
April 9th:



April 10th:



April 11th:



April 12th:


Member Since: Februar 2, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 1100
529. RTSplayer 01:05 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Wow.

Did they get the fire put out or something?

First day in like a week that the fire isn't the dominant feature on satellite and radar in Florida...
Member Since: Januar 25, 2012 Posts: 27 Comments: 1052
530. Tazmanian 01:05 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
here is a tip if there a EF5 comeing right at your house and you no this for about a few hrs now here the thing dont ride it out in your house or bassmnet get in your car and drive a way if its day light that is
Member Since: Mai 21, 2006 Posts: 5089 Comments: 111632
531. RTSplayer 01:10 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting ncstorm:


I will ask you again after this weekend


You know, people can use some common sense.


Once the outbreak starts everyone should know "hey a tornado could form at any time!"

Watch the local mets and watch the radar on here or NWS site as much as possible so they can see if a really bad cell is headed their way.

The local mets have been very, very good in the past.

Unfortunately, there aren't enough people paying attention to them.

Even in last year's outbreak with all the warnings, we saw people driving cars straight INTO the tornado, and it wasn't the chasers. And then later people are like, "I didn't even know anything was happening!"


Well, I don't know what more the government and news and weather people can do to fix that.


You can have all the models and expert forecasters and media, etc, but if the people aren't going to use it, or at least communicate with one another, it simply won't help them.
Member Since: Januar 25, 2012 Posts: 27 Comments: 1052
532. skook 01:11 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting Tazmanian:
here is a tip if there a EF5 comeing right at your house and you no this for about a few hrs now here the thing dont ride it out in your house or bassmnet get in your car and drive a way if its day light that is



So you can get stuck in another tornado? or while you are driving get smashed by hail?.....
Member Since: August 10, 2009 Posts: 11 Comments: 333
533. Barefootontherocks 01:11 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:
Wichita and Oklahoma City...two of the biggest targets for tomorrow's outbreak.



I didn't want to believe that 110 knot 500mb jet in the frame you posted yesterday from the NAM. Whatever storms do develop will be in an environment to kick quickly into gear and likely move fast. Also want say I really appreciate your efforts and those of other youngsters here to cover severe wx on this blog.
Member Since: April 29, 2006 Posts: 136 Comments: 16518
534. RTSplayer 01:13 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting Tazmanian:
here is a tip if there a EF5 comeing right at your house and you no this for about a few hrs now here the thing dont ride it out in your house or bassmnet get in your car and drive a way if its day light that is


Unfortunately, this is true.

They've been finding that ordinary basements do not protect people very well against the top half of EF4 and above.

Saw some of that last year, and it was sad, because people did what they were "supposed to" and got killed or maimed (amputees) anyway.



A lot of the basements I've seen on videos after these storms are basically just open pits that the floor joists go across, and maybe they have a post or two down there supporting the house.


What they really need is a concrete or foam panel, something that cannot "rack" and cannot break into thousands of wooden splinters.

At least if a foam panel breaks (very hard to do) it will provide an angled piece of shielding over somebody's head.

If the floor joists in these houses break, you get tons of debris with sharp wooden splinters going everywhere.
Member Since: Januar 25, 2012 Posts: 27 Comments: 1052
535. Barefootontherocks 01:16 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
One storm is all it takes for a high-end event. I'm still kind of in denial here. How's this for a Severe wx reminder...

"Remember Joplin!"

Some more perspective from the 1 am CDT Day 2 outlook..

THE MAIN CONCERN FOR THIS FORECAST IS CONVECTIVE COVERAGE. MANY OF
THE MODELS DO NOT DEVELOP NUMEROUS THUNDERSTORMS ALONG THE DRYLINE.
IN SPITE OF THIS...THE MODELS DIMINISH THE CAP ACROSS THE SRN AND
CNTRL PLAINS LATE SATURDAY AFTERNOON SO THIS BRINGS THE MODELS INTO
QUESTION.
IN ADDITION...THE MODELS DRIVE A BAND OF LARGE-SCALE
ASCENT ACROSS CNTRL KS DURING THE EARLY EVENING SUGGESTING MANY
STORMS SHOULD INITIATE WITH STORMS INITIATING SWD WITH TIME EARLY
SATURDAY EVENING AS THE LOW-LEVEL JET STRENGTHENS. THESE FACTORS
COMBINED WITH SFC DEWPOINTS IN THE LOWER TO MID 60S F AND VERY
FAVORABLE LOW-LEVEL SHEAR PROFILES SHOULD PRODUCE AND ENVIRONMENT
FAVORABLE FOR A TORNADO OUTBREAK. AFTER COLLABORATION WITH WFOS
WICHITA...NORMAN...TOPEKA...TULSA AND DODGE CITY...A HIGH RISK WILL
BE ISSUED DUE TO THE POTENTIAL FOR A HIGH-END LIFE THREATENING EVENT
ACROSS THE SRN AND CNTRL PLAINS.


Maybe this will show risk areas a little closer up.
Member Since: April 29, 2006 Posts: 136 Comments: 16518
536. jeffs713 01:23 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting Tazmanian:
here is a tip if there a EF5 comeing right at your house and you no this for about a few hrs now here the thing dont ride it out in your house or bassmnet get in your car and drive a way if its day light that is

That is actually terrible advice, Taz. A car is extremely dangerous to be in during a tornado. Also, during a high-risk event, while running from one storm, you could run into another. And... if a tornado is moving NE at 60 mph... You would be hard-pressed to truly outrun it. A person's natural reaction when running "from" a storm is to go directly away from it. With tornados, running directly away means it is just going to follow you. With how many major thoroughfares are set up in the midwest (north-south and east-west), running away from a storm gets even more complicated.

Best bet if you see a major tornado coming... get in your basement, and hold on.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5729
537. ScottLincoln 01:26 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

The idea of people staying in their basements all day is crazy. What I would do however is get everything I essentially need and put it in the basement, and stay above ground until there is a tornado warning issued.


Just think of how much people would listen to our warnings next event if this event we told them to stay in their basements all day...
Member Since: September 28, 2002 Posts: 3 Comments: 1788
538. jeffs713 01:27 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting RTSplayer:


Unfortunately, this is true.

They've been finding that ordinary basements do not protect people very well against the top half of EF4 and above.

Saw some of that last year, and it was sad, because people did what they were "supposed to" and got killed or maimed (amputees) anyway.



A lot of the basements I've seen on videos after these storms are basically just open pits that the floor joists go across, and maybe they have a post or two down there supporting the house.


What they really need is a concrete or foam panel, something that cannot "rack" and cannot break into thousands of wooden splinters.

At least if a foam panel breaks (very hard to do) it will provide an angled piece of shielding over somebody's head.

If the floor joists in these houses break, you get tons of debris with sharp wooden splinters going everywhere.

Remember - houses in OK and KS aren't built like houses in the deep south. OK and KS is tornado country. The houses, and ESPECIALLY the basements, are built to a higher standard, and much more storm resistant. Worrying about splinters and such is pointless. In a major tornado, hiding in a basement isn't designed to save you from any possible injury. It is designed to SAVE YOUR LIFE. You *will* have cuts and bruises. You will also be able to see the next sunrise.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5729
539. JNCali 01:27 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting jeffs713:

I agree. A high risk is dangerous, but asking people to hunker down all day is absurd. People in the high risk area are *very* used to severe storms, so many know what to look out for, and when to hunker down.

To give an analogy... asking people to stay in their basements all day tomorrow is similar to asking everyone to get off the road between 11pm and 3am every friday and saturday night because of the higher risk for drunk drivers.
I think the essence of the thought is to not stray too far away from your 'basement'. I would imagine that the storms will not be moving linear faster than 40 mph but the potential of rapid vertical development and intensification could catch people off guard. If I lived in that area I would not be planning on taking any road trips..
Member Since: September 9, 2010 Posts: 5 Comments: 1032
540. MAweatherboy1 01:28 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Now we have a hatched area for today...

Member Since: Februar 11, 2012 Posts: 71 Comments: 6536
541. TheOnlyBravesFan 01:29 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

The idea of people staying in their basements all day is crazy. What I would do however is get everything I essentially need and put it in the basement, and stay above ground until there is a tornado warning issued.


I agree. Having people in basements all day might cause panic, and generally isn't necessary. Just be prepared, and listen for NWS products/warnings. Don't say you weren't warned.
Member Since: Januar 30, 2012 Posts: 10 Comments: 186
542. jeffs713 01:29 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting Barefootontherocks:
One storm is all it takes for a high-end event. I'm still kind of in denial here. How's this for a Severe wx reminder...

"Remember Joplin!"

Some more perspective from the 1 am CDT Day 2 outlook..

THE MAIN CONCERN FOR THIS FORECAST IS CONVECTIVE COVERAGE. MANY OF
THE MODELS DO NOT DEVELOP NUMEROUS THUNDERSTORMS ALONG THE DRYLINE.
IN SPITE OF THIS...THE MODELS DIMINISH THE CAP ACROSS THE SRN AND
CNTRL PLAINS LATE SATURDAY AFTERNOON SO THIS BRINGS THE MODELS INTO
QUESTION.
IN ADDITION...THE MODELS DRIVE A BAND OF LARGE-SCALE
ASCENT ACROSS CNTRL KS DURING THE EARLY EVENING SUGGESTING MANY
STORMS SHOULD INITIATE WITH STORMS INITIATING SWD WITH TIME EARLY
SATURDAY EVENING AS THE LOW-LEVEL JET STRENGTHENS. THESE FACTORS
COMBINED WITH SFC DEWPOINTS IN THE LOWER TO MID 60S F AND VERY
FAVORABLE LOW-LEVEL SHEAR PROFILES SHOULD PRODUCE AND ENVIRONMENT
FAVORABLE FOR A TORNADO OUTBREAK. AFTER COLLABORATION WITH WFOS
WICHITA...NORMAN...TOPEKA...TULSA AND DODGE CITY...A HIGH RISK WILL
BE ISSUED DUE TO THE POTENTIAL FOR A HIGH-END LIFE THREATENING EVENT
ACROSS THE SRN AND CNTRL PLAINS.


Maybe this will show risk areas a little closer up.

Keep safe up there. It is one thing to be reviewing information about storms, but another thing entirely to be reviewing information about storms you can see out your window.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5729
543. RTSplayer 01:29 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Potential invest has gotten so far north now.

It'll really have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to turn back south and develop like the models said.
Member Since: Januar 25, 2012 Posts: 27 Comments: 1052
544. ScottLincoln 01:29 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

They never got a Day 2 High Risk like we have witnessed this morning. This is only the second time in history. The last time it happened, we had a 60% tornado probability issued. It's not just the coverage of storms/tornadoes for tomorrow, it's their strength. Hodos and wind profiles for tomorrow evening/night are insane across northern Oklahoma and central Kansas.


Just think of how much people would listen to our warnings next event if this event we told them to stay in their basements all day...

Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

They never got a Day 2 High Risk like we have witnessed this morning. This is only the second time in history. The last time it happened, we had a 60% tornado probability issued. It's not just the coverage of storms/tornadoes for tomorrow, it's their strength. Hodos and wind profiles for tomorrow evening/night are insane across northern Oklahoma and central Kansas.


How soon you see the moderate or high risks does not necessarily correspond to how bad the event will be nor the density of severe weather. It is more related to perceived confidence in the event.

Some of our biggest events in recent history did not have enhanced risks or wording until the day of the event. Some of our biggest bust events have had enhanced wording out far before the event. I wouldn't put meaning into how soon an area is highlighted as an indicator of severity. Many of ingredients for severe weather and even strong tornadoes are not known or observable until just before they occur.
Member Since: September 28, 2002 Posts: 3 Comments: 1788
545. weatherh98 01:30 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting jeffs713:

That is actually terrible advice, Taz. A car is extremely dangerous to be in during a tornado. Also, during a high-risk event, while running from one storm, you could run into another. And... if a tornado is moving NE at 60 mph... You would be hard-pressed to truly outrun it. A person's natural reaction when running "from" a storm is to go directly away from it. With tornados, running directly away means it is just going to follow you. With how many major thoroughfares are set up in the midwest (north-south and east-west), running away from a storm gets even more complicated.

Best bet if you see a major tornado coming... get in your basement, and hold on.

I think he means that if you know ones coming and it's an EF 5 run as fast as you can out of the way
Member Since: Juni 17, 2011 Posts: 11 Comments: 6301
546. jeffs713 01:31 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting JNCali:
I think the essence of the thought is to not stray too far away from your 'basement'. I would imagine that the storms will not be moving linear faster than 40 mph but the potential of rapid vertical development and intensification could catch people off guard. If I lived in that area I would not be planning on taking any road trips..

With a 110-knot jet above the storms.. I wouldn't be surprised to see storm motion in excess of 50kt today.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5729
547. RTSplayer 01:33 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting jeffs713:

Remember - houses in OK and KS aren't built like houses in the deep south. OK and KS is tornado country. The houses, and ESPECIALLY the basements, are built to a higher standard, and much more storm resistant. Worrying about splinters and such is pointless. In a major tornado, hiding in a basement isn't designed to save you from any possible injury. It is designed to SAVE YOUR LIFE. You *will* have cuts and bruises. You will also be able to see the next sunrise.


That's just it man.

Last year, a significant number of the people who DIED were in the basement.


It was so much so, that even the Weather Channel was questioning whether the basement was the right thing to do in an EF4 or EF5.


Obviously, it's a heck of a lot better than being on the surface, but even in the 1990's in the Jarrel tornado(F5,) people died in their basements who could have out-run the storm on FOOT.
Member Since: Januar 25, 2012 Posts: 27 Comments: 1052
548. jeffs713 01:33 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting weatherh98:

I think he means that if you know ones coming and it's an EF 5 run as fast as you can out of the way

Even that is dangerous, as a storm can easily turn, speed up, or another storm could get you.

Best advice - don't be on the road if you don't need to be.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5729
549. Tazmanian 01:35 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
basement are death traps is not a safe place too be in a nado


here is why




and here the news story on it


NEAR POCAHONTAS, Iowa (KTIV) -- It was a fight for survival in what one family thought was the safest place they could be.

"If I hadn't seen those funnels, I probably wouldn't have went until the glass started breaking," says farmer, Jim Murray.

It was enough fear that got Jim Murray into his storm cellar, now a little difficult to recognize, with his wife.

"She'd been through it before so she was actually in that room 45 minutes before I got in there. She was already nervous," says Murray.

Nervous for what was about to happen.

"We had an 8-inch slab of cement on top of the storm cellar and that went. The door blew out, and we were hanging on for dear life after that," says Murray.

A terrifying moment that had Murray wondering whether they'd survive.

"I thought we were going to get sucked right out of there," says Murray.

And there's another aspect of the story that seems to be a bit surreal.

The pick-up truck, which was in the garage before the tornado struck, ended up in the basement afterwards, landing on their pool table.

"If we would have been under the pool table, we would have been squashed," says Murray.

And as for the rest of the property, there isn't a lot to show for it.

"It's pretty much a total loss. I mean, there's not much left to salvage at all, no trees, no nothing," says Murray.

And although Murray walked away safely from this experience, he's offering himself some new advise about not hesitating to get underground.

"Get your butt down in there. So, that's what I'm going to do next time," says Murray.




now this kind is a safe place to be

Member Since: Mai 21, 2006 Posts: 5089 Comments: 111632
550. ScottLincoln 01:35 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting RTSplayer:


Unfortunately, this is true.

They've been finding that ordinary basements do not protect people very well against the top half of EF4 and above.

Saw some of that last year, and it was sad, because people did what they were "supposed to" and got killed or maimed (amputees) anyway.


Just because people still die in basements during the strongest of tornadoes does not mean that basements are not the statistically-safest places to be during such events. We do not have large datasets of people driving away vs. staying basements during the same tornadic conditions by which to accurately compare mortality/injury statistics. Even so, the evidence we do have strongly suggests that being stuck in traffic in a vehicle is orders of magnitude more dangerous than being below ground during a tornado.
Member Since: September 28, 2002 Posts: 3 Comments: 1788
551. weatherh98 01:37 PM GMT am 13. April 2012    
Quoting jeffs713:

Even that is dangerous, as a storm can easily turn, speed up, or another storm could get you.

Best advice - don't be on the road if you don't need to be.


Oh i complpletely agree! Hunker down baby! but, I think that is what Taz meant
Member Since: Juni 17, 2011 Posts: 11 Comments: 6301

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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